The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

Meeting of August 8, 2008 - Subscription Renewal

PRESENT:

NAOMI C. EARP Chair
LESLIE E. SILVERMAN Vice Chair
STUART J. ISHIMARU Commissioner
CHRISTINE M. GRIFFIN Commissioner
CONSTANCE S. BARKER Commissioner    (by videoconference)

ALSO PRESENT:

RONALD COOPER General Counsel
REED RUSSELL Legal Counsel
BERNADETTE B. WILSON Program Analyst

This transcript was produced from video tapes provided by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

VOTE TO CLOSE A PORTION OF NEXT MEETING
Approved

SOLE SOURCE SUBSCRIPTION RENEWAL
Deidre Flippen

VOTE TO RENEW LRP CYBERFEDS ON
THE WEB

P R O C E E D I N G S

1:04 p.m.

CHAIR EARP: Good afternoon. The meeting will now come to order.

Thank you all for being here. In accordance with the Sunshine Act, a part of today's meeting is open to public observation of the Commission's deliberations and voting.

At this time I'm going to ask Bernadette Wilson to announce any notation votes that have taken place since the last Commission meeting.

Ms. Wilson?

MS. WILSON: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Madam Vice Chair, Commissioners. I'm Bernadette Wilson from the Executive Secretariat.

We'd like to remind our audience that questions and comments from the audience are not permitted during the meeting. And we ask that you carry on any conversations outside the meeting room, departing and re-entering as quietly as possible.

Also, please take this opportunity to turn your cell phones off or to vibrate mode.

I would also like to remind the audience that in addition to the elevators, in case of emergency there are stairways down the halls to the right and left as you exit this room. Additionally, the restrooms are down the hall to the right.

During the period July 26, 2008, through August 5th, 2008, the Commission acted on four items by notation vote.

Approved litigation on two cases;

Approved revisions to 29 CFR Part 1650; and,

Approved a request to close a portion of the August 6, 2008, Commission meeting. Madam Chair, it is appropriate at this time to have a motion to close a portion of the next Commission meeting in case there are any closed meeting agenda items.

CHAIR EARP: Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

Do I hear a motion?

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: So moved.

CHAIR EARP: Is there a second?

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second.

CHAIR EARP: Any discussion?

Hearing none, all those in favor?

(CHORUS OF AYES.)

CHAIR EARP: The ayes have it. The motion is carried. Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

Good afternoon again. I want to officially say welcome to everyone in attendance.

The first item on today's agenda is the Sole Source Subscription Renewal to LPR’s CyberFEDS on the Web.

Here to make the presentation is Deidre Flippen, Director of the Office of Research Information and Planning. She is accompanied by our Librarian, Susan Taylor and Holly Wilson.

Thank you.

MS. FLIPPEN: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Madam Vice Chair and Commissioners. My name is Deidre Flippen. I am the Director of the Office of Research Information and Planning. I have with me today Susan Taylor, Director of the Library at Information Services Division and Holly Wilson, our Senior Research Librarian.

The Commission has before it a sole source acquisition request that requires Commission consideration and vote. This service is for a 12-month subscription renewal for 250 users to access the on-line resource of CyberFEDS on the Web complete libraries.

CyberFEDs on the Web provides access to federal employment news, trends, decisions, policies, guidance and more. It is an on-line database which also offers federal sector EEOC administrative decisions, arbitrator biographies and statistics and unique treatises. The primary users of this on-line resource are the Commission's administrative judges as well as the staff of the Office of Federal Operations. However, there are several users in the Office of Human Resources, Office of Field Programs and, of course, the Headquarters Library.

The treatises on CyberFEDS, especially Ernest Hadley's A Guide to Federal Sector Employment Law and Practice, as well as the Peter Broida Guides On FLRA And MSPB Practices are found on no other database. These resources used to be available via another on-line legal research service and were heavily used by the administrative judges and federal sector attorneys.

When these books were no longer available, the library decided to purchase a sufficient number of the books to share among EEOC AJs in the field and OFO staff for FY 2006. In FY 2007, the library recommended subscribing to CyberFEDS as the cost for this on-line service was now just a modest increase over the cost of buying the books. There are great benefits to subscribing to CyberFEDS instead of buying the books. The cost for CyberFEDS is only a few thousand dollars more than purchasing the books. CyberFEDS is a full text searchable database available 24 hours a day, seven days a week and it can be accessed anywhere via an internet connection. This is invaluable to the AJs and other staff who may be teleworking or at a hearing and away from the office. Each staff person can access the materials, they do not have to share a book. Feedback from staff on CyberFEDS has been positive.

The current contract expires on August 31, 2008. If approved, the renewal period would cover a 12-month period starting September 1, 2008, through August 31, 2009.

It is the recommendation of the Office of Research, Information and Planning that the Commission approve the renewal to CyberFEDS on the Web, complete libraries for use by appropriate Commission staff.

Thank you and we're available to take questions.

CHAIR EARP: Thank you, Ms. Flippen.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Madam Chair, parliamentary inquiry.

I'm assuming that we can't talk about the cost of this contract at this meeting because of procurement issues. I just want to --

CHAIR EARP: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right. So, we should not mention anything about dollar figures. Can we mention anything about ranges or even that should be avoided?

LEGAL COUNSEL RUSSELL: I think it's best to avoid it if you can. What you could say is the reason we're having the meeting is this is a sole source contract over $25,000.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right. But try to avoid any mention of dollar figures and even ranges of dollar figures is probably advised.

LEGAL COUNSEL RUSSELL: Yes, sir.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIR EARP: We'll now have statements, comments, questions beginning with the Vice Chair.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: I have no statements or comments. Thanks.

CHAIR EARP: Commissioner?

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before I begin my brief statement and ask my few questions, I want to take a moment since this may be my last meeting with the Vice Chair. And I just wanted to say what a privilege and what a treat it's been to be able to serve with the Vice Chair, assuming that we may not see the Vice Chair in our near-term future.

But it's really been an honor and I think the legacy you leave is a big one. And from all the work you've done here and on a personal level, it's just been a treat dealing with you even when you've had to come scold me on numerous occasions. But I will miss you and wish you well. And just in case we aren't at a meeting together in the future, I just wanted to raise that before I got started.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Well, thank you for your kind words and since it's August and I think Congress has gone out for the most part from what I understand, although it's debatable some places. It's safe to say that, yes, this would be, I guess, our last meeting together because you won't be able to make --

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I’m not sure yet, but just in case.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Okay.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I just wanted to make sure that --

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Well, thank you.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- I got that on the record and wish you well.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Thank you very much.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I'm hoping someone explains to me along the way about I thought we have two more meetings. No?

CHAIR EARP: One.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: One. One actually.

CHAIR EARP: The 22nd hopefully. We could probably cram them in.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Let's have another one. Why not?

CHAIR EARP: These are so fun and we'll invite Deidre.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I don't think she should get off without at least a couple more.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I wanted to thank you for the presentation on CyberFEDS on the Web, you know, and I want to especially thank my friends from the library, Susan Taylor and Holly Wilson for coming up to answer questions we had about this.

I think as a general matter on-line subscriptions are good things. And I think in this case when you look at the marginal cost -- the small incremental cost over buying books, there's real value to having an on-line service.

But it also goes to the larger question that quite often we don't consider as a Commission because these are within the realm of operations and within the realm of the Chair's office of how we spend our money, and what choices we make. And because this is a sole source contract it comes before us and some of the operations behind the curtain are revealed.

And I guess my questions here go really to the question of, you know, what is the scope of usage, how many people really use these services, whether we find value, which I'll let you answer after I get a couple of other questions answered.

I guess you had mentioned Deidre in your statement that this costs a little bit more than without going into ranges, than buying hard copies of the books. When we bought hard copies of the books, I assume we bought them for the offices rather than for the employees. Maybe either Susan or Holly could address, you know, who we bought books for in the past?

MS. TAYLOR: We do buy books for offices. We do not buy books for individual employees.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right. So, we --

MS. TAYLOR: ... any books.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: We never provided treatises of say, Mr. Hadley or Mr. Broida to individual AJs?

MS. TAYLOR: No.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: It was always done on an office by office basis?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: And I would assume in some offices we may buy multiple copies depending on the numbers of people but that's all the function of --

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- size.

Do you know whether there has been a survey of people who use these services to find out whether they, in fact, use the on-line CyberFEDS system?

MS. TAYLOR: We've not done a formal survey. We do get feedback from the AJs and OFO staff. Holly gets e-mail messages back from them using the services and we also with the vendor, the vendor offers training and Holly sort of is the go-between arranging the training for the staff in the field --

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right.

MS. TAYLOR: -- especially.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: But I guess what I'm trying to understand is, given the range of possible users, if we have a handle on how many people actually use on-line services, and I know from dealings on other on-line services, quite often there's a divide between people who use on-line services and are comfortable using them and people who would never use an on-line service or always comfortable going to a book product or something else. And they just would not use something where you're typing in or searching on line. They just don't use it.

MS. TAYLOR: Okay. Are you talking just in general like on a legal research?

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Well, I'm talking about a generational divide and --

MS. TAYLOR: Generational divide.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- how people, you know, where they will go to use --

MS. TAYLOR: Right.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- resources. And what I'm trying to figure out here for both this service and other services, is do we have a feel, because from my briefings with you, we were unable to tell who’s actually using these services. Or at least in the past it would be expensive to try to do that because there would be extra charges.

MS. TAYLOR: Yes. This particular service uses one password for the agency, like one of the other services we have from another vendor.

On the large legal research services, they have individual passwords, the legal staff here at EEOC.

The staff in the field do not have access to the print, primary legal resources anymore. They used to have the reporters in the field. So, this is their only way of accessing legal materials, you know, in general. They don't have access to the books anymore in the field offices.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: But I would assume they have old versions of the Hadley and Broida treatises that are still there?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, but they would not be current.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right. No, they wouldn't be current. Right. Right, but if you wanted to read a treatise and if you didn't use on-line services, if you weren't comfortable using it, you would go to the next best thing is a somewhat outdated book.

And so I guess my questions here are: We have one password for this service so people can access it, but we don't know how many people are actually accessing it. Yet, I assume that in coming up with the cost it's based on a number of users that we have to submit.

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: So, could it be that we're over-estimating the number of users?

MS. TAYLOR: That is a possibility, but we based it on the staffing in OFO and the number of AJs in the agency.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right.

MS. TAYLOR: HR staff as well and the other staff.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: But it's based on everyone using it from those various offices?

MS. TAYLOR: The vendors usually when they give us prices it's based on our staffing, not who we think, because we don't know when we first start a contract how many are actually going to use it.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: No. I --

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I realize that, but if we do not know how many people use it, it may be that say hypothetically, say we had 100 people and let's say five people use it, five percent actually were users. Are we hypothetically overpaying for that product if there's, in fact, five users?

I would argue perhaps. And it's hard for me to make a judgment on these types of things if you don't have that underlying data.

Deidre?

MS. TAYLOR: Well, we do have data on usage. It's just the number of minutes total.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right, no, no, we have aggregate --

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- numbers on usage but we're not charged on the aggregate number. It was my understanding that the cost of this is a function of how many potential --

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- users. How many licenses do you have, not on how much use we use of it?

MS. TAYLOR: Correct on this one.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right. Okay.

Deidre, you got something?

MS. FLIPPEN: I just wanted to mention that Susan and Holly and I have been talking about the issue of usage because it's been raised by Commissioners during our various conversations. And, yes, with this particular service, we've not done a survey. But we talked about it and we do intend to do one to figure out exactly how many users there are and if people aren't using it, then we would reduce the number. We've done that for other surveys, we've just not done it for this one.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I see.

MS. FLIPPEN: We've done it for some other services where we've done a survey. If people had not logged on and were not using the service, we canceled their password or whatever.

MS. TAYLOR: No, that was for… the two large legal research systems, if passwords are not used, then we contact the person, the individuals --

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: This is for WestLaw and Lexis?

MS. TAYLOR: The two.. yes. I wasn't -- legal research services. Yes, passwords do get canceled in that situation. And the other major on-line service that we have that's available to the Commission that has one password to it, it's a new service we subscribe to. On that one we do get, you know, feedback from staff on that one as well, whether they're using it or not. And we did drop that dramatically, the number of users a couple of years ago.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Okay, my time is up, Madam Chair. I'll wait for the next round.

Thank you.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll just actually keep going with that.

Can you do that mid-contract so we can actually go back to let's say CyberFEDS in two months and say, you know what? We really only have, you know, 150 users and renegotiate or are we locked in?

MS. TAYLOR: I don't know, and then the other issue would be if you drop it down, let's say to 150 users, but your potential user base is the number of AJs and OFO staff and then the other staff.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right.

MS. TAYLOR… I mean, maybe the AJ only needs to use it, you know, on an occasional basis…

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right

MS. TAYLOR …so you would be shutting them out. How are you going to decide who -- ?

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I think if someone’s only using it twice a year --?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- and we have access to it at five of our desktops in the same office, wouldn't it make sense that they, you know, I mean. If we find out someone is only using it once or twice a year, why the hell would we pay, I mean, that doesn't make sense.

I'm just asking the question, you know, if we find out, you raised it. If we find out that, you know, whatever. Fifty of them aren't using it or whatever because we've come up with this number artificially to some degree. We've said, okay. Who are the potential users out there? We know this is new. We talked about that. You know, we only had it for a limited period of time last year. We can only see the time usage which was very low frankly. But then again people haven't had training or whatever they need to probably use it effectively. So, arguably we're entering into a whole new year. We don't know that mid-contract whether we could amend that or not.

Is that the answer?

MS. FLIPPEN: We can't answer that at this time. We'd have to talk with procurement about what the options are for doing that and whether or not we would --

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay.

MS. FLIPPEN: -- have to make some kind of adjustment to the Statement of Work. And we’d have to consult with procurement.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No one’s against everyone having all the tools they need to do their job, that's not what this is about. Just saying, you know, does this make sense, you know, fiscally given that we're making choices frankly to spend money. You have so much money and you're making a choice. Do we spend it here or do we spend it somewhere else?

I think, you know, for me it comes down to that, you know, that we do have these, you know, choices that we have to make and, you know, how does this all fit into the bigger picture, you know, of all the research services we provide and all the other things that we do or don't do. So, I really don't have a lot of questions. I think you said it in the presentation. The thing that the AJs and federal sector people have access to that they don't have anywhere else. You know, the Ernie Hadley and Peter Broida books. That's pretty much it. Right?

I mean, they have access. There's a lot of other stuff on there but they have access to that via other avenues, so, it's just another. Right? Is that correct?

MS. WILSON: The primary reason was the fact that the Hadley and Broida guys moved to CyberFEDS…

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right.

MS. WILSON …exclusively from the other major legal database. And the fact of the matter was that it seemed very cost-effective when we had to buy multiple copies. We didn’t buy one copy for every AJ but you had to have a sufficient number for the larger offices for the AJS to share.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right.

MS. WILSON: To go with an on-line version rather than renewing print since the resources are annual.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And Peter Broida and Ernie Hadley updated annually, don't they?

MS. WILSON: It's an annual complete update.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.

MS. WILSON: It's not a pocket part that we can buy.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.

MS. WILSON: But it's an actual update of the entire treatise.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay.

I think again just as a matter of looking at the big picture and saying, “What are we not -- what do we not spend our money on and what do folks really need?” And if everyone says we really need this and we're all really using it and there's evidence of that, that's great. But I guess we just don't know that, huh?

MS. WILSON: Well, I can say from the feedback that we received from the AJs before we subscribed, they were the prime movers behind our decision to go with an on-line because there were sufficient copies of the treatises for everybody to use it when they needed it. And the AJs would come back to me. I have a mail group for all the AJs and I put out the information about, “No, we would have multiple copies per office.” And the AJs would write me back and say, “Oh, I never can get access to the print, it's, you know, wandered off, it's in somebody's office, I never have it when I need it.” And so I mean that is really why Susan and I explored the on-line option --

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.

MS. WILSON: -- because it gives access to not only to Hadley and Broida which was the primary mover, but to other resources as well, 24 hours a day, wherever there's an interval in time connection.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.

MS. WILSON: And it just seemed efficient and a good use of the Commission's money --

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.

MS. WILSON: -- to go that route.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. Thank you.

CHAIR EARP: Commissioner Barker?

COMMISSIONER BARKER: Thank you for not forgetting about me. I don't have any comments other than it just seems to me that it's my understanding -- can you all hear me all right?

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. Very good.

COMMISSIONER BARKER: Good., it's my understanding that this is a legal resource. The AJs have lists that they really need and that it's more cost effective for us to purchase the on-line version than the print version. And it also appears to me that this would be a small portion of the whole IT budget. So, I don't have any questions or concerns.

Thank you.

CHAIR EARP: Thank you.

Vice Chair, anything?

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: So last year is the first year that you had it and I'm sure -- I mean, you're doing more training. I mean, a lot of times people don't use these things because they don't know how.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: So, are you going to do more training just because it is nice to have so many more resources at your desktop 24/7, not that I say that we should be working like that, but it just gives more flexibility.

MS. WILSON: When we first notified each member or each person in OFO, each user in the field offices or AJs and the assorted others here at Headquarters; we had arranged for telephone training as well as some in-house training for those folks here at Headquarters, and the CyberFEDS folks put out information. All an AJ, for example, has to do in Cincinnati is call up CyberFEDS and arrange for a session. I do have information from a trainer at CyberFEDS who's just given me a nifty little flyer that I was going to -- if this is approved, send out to each and every individual again to remind them of their training options and the fact that they can have training as needed simply by calling up CyberFEDS and making an appointment. The training is always available.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: From some of the information my staff gathered on this anecdotally they heard that this was more prevalently used by the AJs and the folks in OFO. So, if it's a question of training, that would be pretty much easier to do here than in the field, I would imagine, too. And maybe even having a session here to help them understand what's available.

MS. WILSON: You mean in OFO?

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Yes.

MS. WILSON: Yes. Well, I mean, we did for each --

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Because they're in one place more or less. Yes.

MS. WILSON: When the subscription was first put out there last year I actually did have classroom training sessions, organized for here at Headquarters. Unfortunately, I only had two people sign up from OFO.

And, of course, the AJs are all over the country. So, they were limited to going with telephone training.

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Thank you. I have no further questions.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, let me -- I'm sorry. I'm going out of turn.

CHAIR EARP: Commissioner?

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Thank you, Madam Chair.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I just pulled a Stuart.

CHAIR EARP: You're a bad influence Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I know.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Let the record show what has been said. I just want it to be clear here. We are no longer buying the Hadley or Broida treatises because we have an electronic version of it. Is that correct?

MS. TAYLOR: For the field. We are buying copies here at Headquarters for the Headquarters' library.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: For the library?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: But it's limited to you and the library --

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- so if people wanted to see a hard copy, they would come to you and see it.

MS. TAYLOR: And we have -- yes. We have a copy in the FOIA reading room as well.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Right. But it's not bought to the same level that it was in the old days --

MS. TAYLOR: Oh, no. No.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: -- for Headquarters people as well. All right.

And as a technical matter, this is coming out of the ORIP budget and not out of the IT budget. Is that right?

MS. TAYLOR: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: And is that true for all of the databases that we subscribe to, the other legal research services as well and whatever else might be out there?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Okay. So, this is a separate operation than the IT budget which deals with other issues?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Okay.

Do you have a feel for beyond the use of the treatises, how much of the decisions and the news products of CyberFEDS is actually used or valued, anecdotally? Do people talk about that or do people talk about really the value here being access to the treatises?

MS. WILSON: I have no knowledge of how anybody is using the resources beyond the Hadley and Broida guides.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Okay. So, it may or may not be useful, the other pieces, but it's just a part of the package so we -

MS. WILSON: It's part of the package. I mean, we can't split off and choose which portions of CyberFEDS you want to use. It's kind of an all or nothing package.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Well, I've been a long time supporter of the library and I think the library serves a valuable function both here at Headquarters and for our people in the field. And I know as we deal in both changing times and how libraries are, given the growth of electronic media, and given the various pressures on size and budget in moving to the new building, I've always been a fan and think that we should always have more library. But we also need to think as we move to the new day of how libraries are used, and what's the valuable piece given competing demand. So, I would hope - I will vote for this - but I would hope when this comes for renewal next year, and I assume that it will, because it's an on-line program and more people will use it, I hope as time goes on that we'll have a far better feel for the actual usage of this, and whether people want to use it. I understand that, you know, there going to be some people who don't use this as an everyday matter but need access to it. But it would be much more helpful I think next year to have a firmer handle on what is the actual demand for this service? And it may influence how much we pay if you can demonstrate, you know, the actual numbers of users, allowing obviously for flexibility knowing that some people are going to use it more and some people are going to use it less. But I think in whatever we do on procurement matters, we need to look carefully, given the tightness of the budgets, of who will actually be using the various things we provide. I think, you know, I certainly applaud my friends in the library for looking at on-line services wherever they may be, that they provide us value that we might not otherwise be able to afford. But I think we also need to look at the demand side as well to make sure that there is a demand of adequate nature to actually support it.

But, again, I thank you for your presentation.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I just wondered. How many copies of the guidance from Ernie Hadley and Peter did we actually buy?

MS. TAYLOR: This year or the last time we bought them in bulk?

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This year.

MS. TAYLOR: This year we bought four.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. So, I mean, that's just for here?

MS. TAYLOR: For here. Yes.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And everyone else --

MS. TAYLOR: It's quite expensive.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. I know. I know. I know. And they issue it annually. Isn't that unbelievable?

Where do they find the time?

I want to vote for this too, but just, you know, based on the report about, you know, how many folks in OFO might or might not be using this. I mean, maybe they know how to use it. But, I mean, before we approve this, should we ask OFO, you know, are people using it? And if they're not gonna, why would we enter into this? Is that a legitimate question?

CHAIR EARP: I think so. I actually was wondering did you have a sense of scheduling, convenience, workload? They are already so text savvy that they didn't need the training? Any sense of why only two people out of OFO staff would participate in the training?

MS. WILSON: I can only make the assumption that most folks when they're looking at on-line services, think, oh, I know how to search. Attorneys know how to use WestLaw so CyberFEDS, it's no big deal. I mean, that's my assumption as to why we didn't get a lot of people sign up for training.

CHAIR EARP: Carlton, sorry to put you on the spot, but you're good on your feet. Would you please comment -- address the question Commissioner Griffin is trying to get at and my concern about why we didn't have more people at Headquarters come forward for the training and any thoughts you have on usage?

MR. HADDEN: Sure.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Madam Chair, before Mr. Hadden starts, I want to commend you for calling Mr. Hadden up because I think getting these answers at the meeting is a good thing to do.

CHAIR EARP: Well, thank you. You're in such a generous mood.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I'm always in a generous mood.

CHAIR EARP: We better quit while we're ahead.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: Let the record show. I'm always in a –

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Oh, the record shows, Stuart.

MR. HADDEN: I think it's a combination of factors. Going to the class itself, people probably are very familiar with how to get online. I think I agree with Holly's point that there's a level of, I use the word "sophistication," but OFO was an early adapter in terms of technology. For myself, it's not the treatises, if that's the right pronunciation.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Treatises.

MR. HADDEN: Treatises. I knew that was a dangerous word to use. But it's really the news for us because we really struggled to find good sources of information, like we have all these conferences, agencies, they're excellent at providing good news source with management side so that's -- that's the strength of CyberFEDS for us.

CHAIR EARP: Okay.

COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Do you have a sense of whether the people are using it or not?

MR. HADDEN: I think, for example, attorneys who’ve been around for awhile, they probably know the basic outlines of what is set forth in both of those publications. And for our interns or for some of the newer attorneys, they may find it helpful and as you really need to do your own search, they may not rely upon it as much as some of the well-seasoned attorneys -- may not rely upon it as much as the newer attorneys.

I could defer to Mr. Dix who is in the room but I think that's the sense of it. COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: All right. Still no closer to knowing how many people are actually using this, but --

MR. HADDEN: What I have done, just so you'll know is, I did encourage them to use -- because it was new and was focusing.

The problem was that at one point I think it was a limited level of access and so I think people get that in their mind that there's a limit and so there's a reluctance because you think, well, can I use it or can I not use it?

Even, I'll confess. I got confused as to whether or not it could or could not be used because there was a limit to the levels of subscriptions. When we went to the broader number, I think, people were still debating, can I use this? Can I not? So, I think it's a combination of education and also just making and maybe using this as a year to see how often it is used. And if it's not, certainly, why would we?

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: Do you think that we should take this opportunity to go back to your folks and find out how many of them probably are doing without, trying to foreclose it now? Or not? I mean, do you think that's -- rather than paying more for something that is not being used, if there are some folks that just aren't going to use it, maybe they're book folks that the library is two floors away, you know. Or whatever. I mean, is it worth it to us or not do you think?

I don't want to preclude anyone who’s going to use it, but I guess their point is why pay for something that they're not using.

MR. HADDEN: Right. I guess we certainly could survey the staff but I'm a huge proponent of on-line and we have a staff which does quite a bit of telecommuting, but we could ask, but I suspect you're going to hear that, oh, I didn't know I could use it, but I will use it now in the future.

CHAIR EARP: Okay. Commissioner Barker, do you have any questions or comments or ?--

COMMISSIONER BARKER: No follow up questions or comments.

Thank you.

CHAIR EARP: Okay. Anything else? Further discussion? Commissioner? No?

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: I actually just want to note for the record that Commissioner Barker is coming to us via teleconference or by video from Birmingham. And since this is leading to the end of the open portion of our meeting, I just wanted to note how well it's worked and as much as I'd like to see my friend, Connie Barker, sitting next to me, it's almost like she's in the room. So, it's actually a nice use of technology.

CHAIR EARP: We will remember that for the next IT contracts that have to come forward.

COMMISSIONER BARKER: And actually I have an advantage that y’all probably don't have. I have this little thing that lets me zoom in and out and pan around the room and that's tons of fun.

COMMISSIONER ISHIMARU: You can also mute it, I guess, as well which I'm sure if some in the room had their choice they would want the --

COMMISSIONER BARKER: I can and I can zoom in on particular microphones or so I'm going to let you think I can.

CHAIR EARP: As long as it's not a close up of the face. Just -- I've been on Pacific time for the last week now. Don't do that.

Any further discussion?

Hearing none, then I'd like to draw the discussion to an end and ask for a motion.

Is there a motion to approve the Sole Source Subscription Renewal to LRP’s CyberFEDS on the Web?

VICE CHAIR SILVERMAN: So moved.

CHAIR EARP: Is there a second?

COMMISSIONER BARKER: Second.

CHAIR EARP: Any discussion?

Hearing none, all those in favor please signify by saying aye.

ALL: AYE.

CHAIR EARP: Opposed?

[No Response]

The ayes have it. The motion carries unanimously.

I want to thank everyone for joining us. We appreciate your being here. There being no further business on the open session, we will now proceed to the closed session.

Ms. Wilson?

MS. WILSON: This concludes the open session of the meeting of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

We now ask that the room be cleared for the closed portion of today's meeting.

(Whereupon, the above matter was concluded at 1:42 p.m.)

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